This page's link: "erowbike.com/motors"

Motors

Revolt (Alexey) motors

Resources

Glossary

BLDC:
BrushLess DC (direct current) motor.
BLDC motors work by having their controller induce changes in electrically created magnetic fields, and these changes always occur in a controllable sequence. Imagine the motor as a dog racing track where each dog is a "phase", chasing its own magnetic field as the rabbit. For a three-phase motor, we have three dogs in the race. The same physical motor can behave quite differently, even with the same controller, as long as that controller is capable of changing the magnetic fields in various ways. This capability primarily arises from the controller's onboard firmware (a version of 'embedded' software).

Circumference:
Exact wheel (rim plus tire) circumference in millimeters (mm). You need this number to calculate true ground speed and distance traveled, if depending on the LEV's onboard computer. For example, this is 1,658mm for 20" (DIN 406) Schwalbe Big Apple Plus rear wheel. The CA3 'sees' this as a 20.7" wheel. Note that tire inflation directly affects this value, so this method has limited accuracy under real life conditions.

controller:
The device that sits electrically between the battery and the BLDC motor. On any given LEV, it might physically be a separate part, be located inside the motor, or even be part of the battery. It's function is to take the DC power coming from the battery pack and feed it to the motor in the three phase AC the motor likes. Controllers can be cheap or expensive, depending on how well they're made, how much power they can reliably deliver to the motor, and how smart they are in making the motor run at its most efficient levels. Many controllers are programmable by the end user, which is a good thing if the end user is looking for a specific kind of behavior for their LEV.

eRPM:
This value, typically used in conjunction with a motor's controller, represents the actual motor RPM times the pole pair count, which is the same as half the number of actual, discrete magnets used in the motor. The Phaserunner controller, for instance, will support motors spinning up to 60,000 eRPM. For the RV-120 motor using 14 magnets (7 pole pairs) controlled by a Phaserunner, the absolute maximum RPMs that combination could achieve would be about 8,600 RPM (60,000/7=8,571). The actual RPM limit might of course be much lower, depending on the system voltage and the motor's KV value.

KV/RPM:
(Also "Kv") The number of revolutions the motor makes for each applied volt. A motor that spins at 5,000 RPM when run at 50 volts has a KV value of 100. Note that the KV value is calculated using the motor's "no load" speed. To correct for this, we can assume that a typical maximum motor speed under load is about 90% of the no load speed (RPM).
This KV number is needed to program the Phaserunner controller, and is also useful for determining how fast you have to spin a motor being used as a generator to have it put out a certain voltage. A low KV value means you're dealing with a low RPM motor or generator. A motor's KV is changed by altering the internal copper windings of the motor, so the outward appearance of the motor generally is unaffected by a change in KV.

LEV:
Light Electric Vehicle. An convenient initialism used here to refer to any electric or electrically assisted vehicle designed for use by humans that is smaller than a 'heavy' electric vehicle, such as an electric car. An LEV would generally have less than 7,500 watts (approx 10 HP) of power, although this value is entirely arbitrary. An LEV might be an e-assist bicycle, trike, rowbike, podbike, electric boat, or any imaginable prototype designed for sport or transport.

Magnets vs Poles (magnet pairs = poles, or pole pairs):
"Magnets" are the discrete rectangular magnets glued to the inside of the steel band which is a major component of the ROTOR. Magnets can be flat (cheaper) or concave to match the radius of the rotor's steel backplate. More powerful magnets result in more driving torque, but also cause more 'cogging' resistance when freewheeling. A neodymium magnet rated "N45" is more powerful, and more expensive, than one rated "N42". This presents an opportunity for compromise.
A motor's number of poles|pole pairs|magnet pairs is always HALF the number of discrete magnets, due to the North and South thing going on. This is also the number of "pulses" on the CA3 "Sp" pad that is considered one full wheel revolution. For direct drive hub motors with a CA-DP model, it refers to the number of "magnet pole pairs" in your hub (usually between 8 to 23). Note that the (411) Hall Effect sensors commonly used in BLDC motors send only ONE pulse back to the controller (and thence to the yellow 'speed' wire input to the CA) for every *transition* in North/South magnetic polarity, which is why you only get *half* as many pulses ("ticks") as the total number of physical magnets, each having only one north and only one south poles. For example, a typical sensored RV-120 motor with 14 physical magnets glued into the rotor (external "can"), will generate 7 'ticks' for every single revolution.
If you have a CA-DPS with external speed sensor ('old-fashioned' magnet pickup/sending unit on spokes), it would be the number of magnets ON your WHEEL (usually 1). For better low speed control it can be advantageous to put several magnets on. On the eRowBike1, for instance, I have a single magnet glued to the hubmotor outer shell on the left side which triggers the speed pickup of a traditional bike computer.

BLDC motors can additionally be classified as being of the "inrunner" or the "outrunner" type. The following drawing, courtesy of Revolt Motors, is of an outrunner BLDC.
motors_bldc_rv-_outrunner_motor_photo

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Bafang motors

Bafang factory web site (USA)

Bafang is a chinese company whose motors have a fairly solid reputation for qualit/price, and are commonly used for after-market ebike conversions.

BBSHD (Luna)

Motor's Key Parameters:

Pole Pairs: PPs (2xPPs magnets)
KV:
Watts (power): Sustained W Watts [divided by 740 watts = * horsepower]
Weight: .0 lbs = 0.0 kilograms
Circumference: 1,658 mm for 20" Schwalbe Big Apple Plus tire at 80% inflation

This shows the Luna-spec'ed version of the Bafang BBSHD mid-drive motor/controller combination. This version has the "Ludicrous" version of the Bafang controller built into the motor. The power ratings for this combination are higher than those for the 'stock' internal controller. This motor was originally used for the direct-drive (non fly-by-wire/FBW) eSkyBike on the indoor track at the farm. It was originally powered by the Luna "Mighty Mini" 14S2P battery pack.
motors_bafang_bbshd_luna_on_bench_photo

Showing the drive side of the BBSHD, with Luna's custom spyder mount and chainring. A stock Sugino 170mm crank arm is bolted to the end of the 4-tapered-flat axle end.
motors_bafang_bbshd_luna_drive_side_photo

Photo of this motor's serial number and other indentifying information. The Luna-supplied assemblies are not identical to the Bafang factory models available through other vendors.
motors_bafang_bbshd_luna_motor-id_info_sn_photo

We are attempting to find out if this motor can be used 'in reverse' as a resistance unit. In this mode the motor becomes a generator/alternator, with its output imposed on the three phase wires. Unfortunately, it appears we have to remove the internal controller to have direct access to the motor's phase wires. What, if any, role the motor's stock inputs, display unit, freewheeling gears, or controller might have in its use a resistance unit is not known as of yet (14 Feb 2021). We currently assume that when forward pedaling this unit with no power connected and the controller removed, that the BLDC motor is spinning freely. The freewheel pawls are engaged with the large main gear, which is hard-connected to the small metal gear visible in the main gear housing. When this small metal gear turns, it turns (in either direction, meaning a 'hard' connection) the white nylon bevel gear, which is hard-connected to the steel pinion drive shaft of the motor. The real problem is that since the motor is in a sealed compartment, you can't prove the rotor is spinning for the same reason behind the refrigerator door open light challenge.

Testing the electrical output of the Luna BBSHD when cranked by hand: TBD, (14 Feb 2021)

See eSkyBike Resistance Unit for more information about this application.

BBSHD (Luna) Disassembly

Removing the controller from the BBSHD involves removing three M4 cap screws (use 3mm allen wrench) and wiggling the potted controller off the rubber gasket. The controller is electrically connected to the actual motor via the three (big blue, yellow, green) phase wires, and two JST-SM connectors. One is a 6 wire bundle, while the other contains four wires. The six wires carry the motor's Hall sensor signals (plus heat sensor?), while the four wire (red, black, white, grey) bundle carries the signals from the crank/pedal cadence counter, also using Hall sensors.
motors_bafang_bbshd_luna_controller_removed_photo

Bottom view:
motors_bafang_bbshd_luna_bottom_view_photo

Side view:
motors_bafang_bbshd_luna_drive_side_with_tools_photo

Drive side of motor with the large gear cover removed. The cover is sealed via a paper gasket and is easily removed using an M4 allen wrench to take out the 6 socket head screws. Note the small green PCB near the small spur gear. This board contains the Hall sensor assembly which sends pulses to the controller allowing it to calculate the RPM's of the crank/pedals.
motors_bafang_bbshd_luna_drive_side_gear_cover_removed_photo

Showing the main drive shaft to which the cranks and pedals are attached. The brownish disc on the right/drive side of the shaft shows the two sets of magnets positioned 180 degrees apart which trigger the Hall sensor cadence counter green PCB module seen in the photo above.
motors_bafang_bbshd_luna_drive_shaft_with_hall_sensor_magnet_ring_photo

A closeup of the Hall sensor printed circuit board ("PCB"). It does not need to be removed when disassembling the motor side of the drive unit. The connection wires going to the controller are soldered onto the PCB and sealed under the white silicone material. The ball bearing race visible in the main drive shaft hole carries the axial loads of the shaft and simply drops into the hole. Make sure the race is clean and lubed on reassembly.
motors_bafang_bbshd_luna_main_gear_housing_crank_cadence_sensor_pcb_photo

The two following photos show additional closeups of the Hall sensors and the magnet ring. You can clearly see the two black Hall sensor surface mount chips (with three leads), as well as the three capacitors (C1-C3) serving as support chips for the circuit. Note the "8Fun" label on the PCB, which suggests this part may be the same as used on Bafang's earlier models of this drive.
motors_bafang_bbshd_luna_main_gear_housing_crank_cadence_sensor_pcb_closeup_photo

motors_bafang_bbshd_luna_drive_shaft_with_hall_sensor_magnet_ring_closeup_photo

The unit's main drive shaft is coupled to the large gear on the drive side by this "freewheel" ratcheting pawl assembly. The rider's forward pedaling action, or the motor's forward assistance, results in the large gear being locked to the chainring (not attached in these photos) and causes the vehicle to go forward. When neither the rider nor the motor is pedaling forward, the pawls retract and de-couple the main gear/chainring from the motor. This allows the vehicle to "coast" without the motor being forced to turn. If pedaling forward doesn't cause the gear/chainring to turn, this freewheel unit likely has failed.
motors_bafang_bbshd_luna_drive_shaft_with_freewheel_pawl_assembly_closeup_photo

This assembly is easily removed from the drive shaft due to the matching splines on both parts. Unlike most bearings, it is not a "press fit", but a well-machined slide fit. On reassembly, make sure the direction of the pawls lines up correctly with the mating housing pressed into the big gear cover plate (next photo after this one).
motors_bafang_bbshd_luna_drive_shaft_with_freewheel_pawl_assembly_removal_photo

Here we see the left, non-drive side of the mid-drive unit, showing the Luna logo added to the Bafang BBSHD motor.
motors_bafang_bbshd_luna_drive_left_side_motor_cover_view_photo

Removing the BLDC motor requires the use of a M3 allen head wrench to remove the 6 socket head screws holding the motor cover plate to the drive unit. Before doing this, the three (yellow, blue, green) phase wires must be freed from the while silicone glue and black rubber grommets used to seal the motor cavity from the controller compartment.
motors_bafang_bbshd_luna_drive_motor_removal_overview_photo

The white silicone sealer also needs to loosened/removed from the perimeter of the light-colored JST-PH-M6 connector, which is part of the PCB containing the motor's own 3 Hall sensors. The motor controller plugs into this connector to pick up the motor's Hall signals, which are separate from the two Hall sensors used to detect crank/pedal rotation. The connector and wires for the pedal cadence Hall sensors do NOT need to be undone. This pedal cadence assembly is identified as the 4 conductor black JST male plug, with red, black, white, and grey wires attached to it, with the wires going to the small PCB board mounted into the main gear housing.
motors_bafang_bbshd_luna_drive_motor_removal_top_of_motor_and_controller_compartment_photo

In this view of the motor removed from the drive unit, we can see the motor's steel bevel gear which drives a corresponding white plastic gear in the drive unit. It's not possible to turn the motor by hand in this state of disassembly because one or more of the the rotor's eight permanent magnets will be stuck to the steel laminations of the motor's stator assembly. This design in which the magnets are embedded in the rotor allows for the use of cheaper flat magnets, as well as reducing the effect of 'cogging' when the vehicle is pedaled without the benefit of assist being turned on. Note that the motor cover uses a paper/foam like gasket to protect the motor from the elements.
motors_bafang_bbshd_luna_drive_motor_removal_top_view_photo

Showing the left/non-drive side of the unit with the motor and motor cover removed. You can just see a few teeth of the white nylon gear inside the housing. For this Luna modified model, this is the only plastic gear used, so if the motor is run with too much heat or power, this gear is a likely failure point.
motors_bafang_bbshd_luna_drive_motor_removed_from_drive_unit_photo

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Bafang G06 Geared Rear Hub

Motor's Key Parameters:

Pole Pairs: 20 (2xPPs magnets)
KV:
Volts: 48
Watts (power): Sustained 500 Watts [divided by 740 watts = 0.68 horsepower]
Torque: Nm
Gear Reduction Ratio: 1:5 one axle revolution for every 5 internal motor revolutions
Speed Sensor: pulses per axle revolution
Weight:
Circumference: *

The G06 has 20 magnets pairs and a gear ratio of 5:1. So P1 = 100. Factory/dealer manual at: BF-DM-C-RM%20G06A2.750-D-EN.pdf
This motor was acquired by us in 2023 as part of the Luna Eclipse folding ebike. At the time of acquisition, the ebike would not power up using the OEM display, controller, and handlebar ON/OFF, Menu, and assist selector switch. An emailed request to Luna for a wiring diagram or pin specifications resulted in a well-intentioned but unsuccessful response saying that the ebike's manufacturer would not supply this information. Additional debugging and other details for this ebike will be atLuna Eclipse 48V folding ebike.

Bafang G020 Geared Front Hub

Motor's Key Parameters:

Pole Pairs: 20 (2xPPs magnets)
KV:
Volts: 36
Watts (power): Sustained 350 Watts [divided by 740 watts = 0.47 horsepower]
Torque: 45Nm
Gear Reduction Ratio: 1:5 one axle revolution for every 5 internal motor revolutions
Speed Sensor: 6 pulses per axle revolution
Weight: .0 lbs = 3.3 kilograms
Circumference: * mm for 26" tire at 80% inflation

Per a Mar 31, 2023 ES post: 20 magnet poles, 5:1 ratio, 6 magnets for speed sensor;
On a KT controller: P1 = 100; P2 = 6

This motor is typical of a large number of motors categorized as "geared, front hub" motors. They are all designed to replace the front hub of a bicycle wheel and provide front wheel drive. While front hub motors also are available in direct drive (ungeared) models, the geared versions are more common.
motors_bafang_hub_geared_front_fm-g020-350d_photo
To make a definitive identification of the motor, look for the stamped model number, followed by the motor's factory issued serial number. This information may be necessary if you need to replace parts or perform other maintenance. To find information about this specific motor, google for "fm-g020-350d". Or, ask ChatGPT, or whatever tool is available as you read this.
motors_bafang_hub_geared_front_fm-g020-350d_sn._photo

You're likely to find information like the following, plus photos and ads for buying this model of motor, if still available:
Original BAFANG FM.G020 front motor; Power: 350 Watt 36V; Torque: 45 Nm; Bottom bracket size: 100mm; waterproof: IP65; connector : 9-Pol Motor; weight motor / assembled: 3,3kg

This particular motor, laced into a 26" front wheel rim, was acquired used for $25 from a social media site, pretty much sight-unseen. While it does show some signs of rough handling, the rim and spokes were straight, and the bearings and internal gears felt smooth, without noticeable play anywhere. The 9 pin male plug is typical for a BAFANG motor and is well documented elsewhere, and adapters are readily available.
motors_bafang_hub_geared_front_fm-g020-350d_side_view_with_9-pin-plug_photo

An additional intial test consisting of shorting out, in turn, of all of the motor's three phase wires revealed that the power wiring from the plug all the way through the motor was OK. A common point of failure for these motors is physical damage to the wires where they enter the motor, and a failed drive gear inside the motor. I most cases some of the internal gears are made of plastic/nylon which will melt if the motor is run too hot. This motor doesn't display any signs of either of this kind of damage. The next test is to see if the motor's three Hall sensors work correctly, and if they do, apply the correct power to the motor.
_photo

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Crystalyte motors

Crystalyte factory web site

NOTE: The first two digits of the Crystalyte model number scheme refer to the *thickness* of the motor, while the second pair (typically either 25 or 40) refers to the top speed of the motor (km/Hr @ 36V, in 26" wheel?). Therefore, a 'high' second part number means a "fast wind" motor.

Models available: HS 3540 Higher Speed,Lower Torque Note that even though it is lower in torque,it still has great hill climbing ability @ 48v expect top speeds of 45 to 50 kms per hour HT 3525 Lower Speed, Higher Torque If you live in a hilly area this is the baby for you @ 48v expect top speeds at 35 to 40 kms per hour. [older "5300" series were 6 pounds heavier] [http://www.ebikedeal.com/home_8.htm]
In the summer of 2011 Crystalyte released a new series that may become a game changer, an affordably priced and rugged hub motor designed with the US market in mind. The model shaves 10 pounds off the older 5304 series, and a lower price as well. You can find the new Crystalyte motors from some dealers for as low as $280.
The Hx25 is the front wheel version
The Hx35 is the rear wheel version [35 = 35mm motor width]
the "T" stand for Torque, faster start but more power, but less top speed T
he "S" stand for Speed, slower start but high speed
The Hx series is like in between 4x and 5x, 9c, Bionx, all mix into two version (front and rear) of motors.
... Hx35 is a like mix in between 408, 9c, 5304, a bit of Bionx (narrow motor case that can fit 7,8, 9 freewheel easily).
- the motor is lighter then both 408, 5304
- the construction is almost like 9c stamped stator (it makes the motor lighter, and cheaper to manufacture)
- the magnet no longer sharped in curve, but standard straight magnet, it reduce the cost
- the motor case is extremely narrow, in the flange distance, bionx is 35mm, Hx35 is 38mm, which mean no dishing necessary
All Hx series is sensorless.
HT2425 weight 12.60 lbs
HS2440 weight 12.88 lbs
HT3525 weight 16.60 lbs
HS3540 weight 16.38 lbs

Crystalyte HT3525

Factory web page for "H" series motors

Motor's Key Parameters:

Pole Pairs: 23 (46 magnets)
KV: 7.1
Watts (power): Sustained 2700 Watts [divided by 740 watts = 3.6 horsepower]
Weight: 16.60 lbs = 7.52 kilograms
Circumference: 1,658 mm for 20" Schwalbe Big Apple Plus tire at 80% inflation

Crystalyte HT3525 rear hub motor, purchased from Ed Lyen, 4 Sep 2013, $380.00 USD ($349 + $31 shipping). Mounted in 406/20" spoked Odyssee rim/wheel (laced by DAS).
Here is the Tringa G 's RHT3525 Motor Test Run video made by Ed Lyen for this specific motor.

@ 48v expect top speeds at 35 to 40 kms per hour (21 to 24 MPH) - on test bench, no load, full (new) battery, 23.5MPH indicated via magnetic sensor glued to hubmotor and read via Sigma 1009, programmed to 1,658mm wheel circumference (20" Schwalbe Big Apple Plus). Number of "poles ("magnet pairs" used for setting speedometer on CA): 23 is correct number. I programmed CA to use this value, and the speedometer on the CA was in "perfect" agreement with the Sigma, set to the same wheel circumference

Top speed in 26" wheel: 25-27mph @ 50V 30-40A; 31-33mph @ 72V 30-37A
This motor can be used to regenerate power to the battery and provide motor braking. This sturdy motor is also known for being very quiet.
Features built-in 2K thermal sensor.
ES: crossbreak Sep 02, 2013 "... setup your CycleAnalyst V3 so it throttle down the motor if 90°C" is reached ...
NSK bearings. Honeywell S411 hall sensors. Axle is machined for 135mm dropouts but is long enough for 175mm dropouts. Up to 7spd freewheel can fit in 135mm dropouts. A freewheel with a higher sprocket count can be installed with a spacer washer. Standard 6 bolt disk brake mount. Weight: 16.25 lbs. Color: Black.
Re: New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24 Postby Andje Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:29 pm Throwing this out to the wind; does anyone know what spacing we would put into the ebike.ca spoke calculator for these motors? Hub Flange Diameter/Flange Spacing is listed on the tech info, i just want to make sure this is correct before ordering spokes. HX35 Flange spacing; 1.5" 38mm HX35 Hub flange diameter; 8.75' 222mm

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Crystalyte H3548 (UFO)

Factory web page -- drill down for "2017/UFO H" series (some engineer thought the motor housing made it look like a UFO) motors.

Motor's Key Parameters:

Serial Number: ME1803R03
Pole Pairs: 23
KV:11.96 RPM/Vas determined by Autotune on Phaserunner
Watts (power):Sustained 2700 Watts [divided by 740 watts = 3.6 horsepower]
Weight: 16.60 ??? lbs = 7.52 kilograms
Circumference: start with 1,658 mm for 20" x 2.35" Odyssee "Mike Aitkin" Knobby tire at 80% inflation

photo of Crystalyte H3548 rear hubmotor

UFO "H" motor series "upgrades" include:

Aluminum stator
0.35mm laminations, sheet grade 290 ~ 300
Stator with a diameter 28mm hole to allow bigger axle and wires
M14x1.5 axle (non-std 137mm dropout - needs spreading on erowbike; axle flats fit into std dropout slots.

photo of Crystalyte H3548 rear hubmotor's model and serial number

Crystalyte H3548 rear hub motor, purchased from Justin/Grin Technologies, 1 May 2019, $439.90.00 USD ($395.00 + $44.90 shipping; delivered 8 May 2019;). Mounted in 406/20" spoked Crystalyte rim/wheel (laced by Crystalyte).

photo of Crystalyte H3548 shipping label

Current application for this motor: eRowbike1, with Phaserunner controller.

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REVOLT Motors

Revolt web site
REVOLT Motors (Israel) revolt.org.il Revolt2012 Ltd Igal Alon 9 Kiryat Motzkin, 2643109 Israel Alexey.K revolt2012info@gmail.com +972526600488 +972544762121 near Haifa Not the same company as Revolt Custom Electric, LLC, or the open source BMS project ("Open-Revolt-BMS") at http://upverter.com/mwismer/307605a19fdbb313/Open-Revolt-BMS/ See also: SkyRide Technologies, LLC; eRowBike;

Our stock motor is 45KV but We can wind the motor for other KV's according your needs (if it's reasonable KV-no extra cost).

Log

10 Oct 2014 - update corr w Alexey re "short" Revolt motor

HJ to Alexey:  9:28 10 Oct 2014
Alexyey.K:

I hope the following additional information will give you what you need to complete an estimate and time frame for delivery for the new, smaller RV motor.

On 10/07/2014 05:42 AM, Revolt 2012 wrote:
> ,?Dear Mr.HJ Schmidt?
> We made model according to your design ,please check the drawing and tell me if you need any changes.

Yes.  We are concerned that the current plan for using M8x1.25mm tapped holes in the motor shaft ends might not leave enough metal once the 12mm shoulders, plus the keyways are cut.  If you agree that it would improve the strength of the shaft, we could adapt our design to use a smaller M6x1mm bolt size, keeping the ~20mm depth of the threaded hole.

> We Don't know how you want to connect the motor bushing (where the wires come out) to the mounting plate (green plate).
> We put question mark on the dimension between the motor face and the bushing face. I need to know if you are going to make room for the wires at your plate or we will need to make it at the bushing (need to make the bushing 5-6 mm longer), I think you should make it at your plate.

Agreed.  We will route the wires coming out of the motor via our mounting plate as you suggest.

> There is retaining spring at the back of the motor that we didn't take into account (please tell us if you are o.k with this).
> You need to put bearing at the back of the motor between the shaft and your mounting plate (the shaft rotate with the back cover).
I believe we can accommodate this via machining our sideplate facing the back of the motor.

> About the price and delivery time - I need to know if you need 1 sample or more.
The RV-120 had more than enough power for our immediate purposes, but we're not sure how much power the smaller ("RV-75" ??) will be able to produce.  If necessary, our design could easily be modified to use a second motor in the same "truck" which now just has a non-powered axle and wheels.  So, it's possible that we would need a second motor built for our immediate prototyping purposes.  When this system goes into production, of course, the number of motors needed would be much larger.  As to delivery time, we would of course appreciate your continuation of what has been a remarkably responsive effort on your part.

Thank you Alexey.K!
HJ Schmidt for SkyRide Technology, LLC

cc: other staff members of SkyRide
John
We've been texting back and forth and I believe he's in agreement.  Should make the mounting adapter smaller, which is good.  We can make a custom one if need be.
On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 9:48 AM, HJ Schmidt <hj@tringa.com> wrote:
Great!  We need Michael to confirm the 8 to M6 reduction to make sure the mounting adapter will still be within his planned specs.
On Oct 9, 2014, at 9:06 AM, John Peterson <pete2271@gmail.com> wrote:
HJ, Scott,
This design looks correct.  I have two comments:
1. We do not need the wire distribution ring, as we will do that in the motor mount plate.  Alexey probably already understands that, because it is not shown in this drawing.
2. We may want to consider a smaller bolt size for the shaft ends.  Currently we are using M8x1.25mm.  That looks like it is cutting it close to the key pocket.  It'll probably be fine, but we may want to go down to M6x1mm.  Either way I would keep the ~20mm depth.
Thanks,
John
On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 8:20 AM, HJ Schmidt <hj@tringa.com> wrote:
    John, there should be a PDF attached to this message -- let me know if you didn't get it, or can't open it.  The drawings are in the PDF.  Thanks
I saw Alexey's email mentioning the drawings, but I haven't seen the actual drawings that he's generated.  Do we have these?  Please send them to me so I can comment.
On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 4:25 PM, Scott Olson <skyridetech@gmail.com> wrote:
HJ
Can you talk to John
And make a move in keeping the motor moving
Mike buisy getting out of town for the park and rec show
Tanks HJ 
On Oct 7, 2014, at 7:35 AM, HJ Schmidt <hj@tringa.com> wrote:
Thank you Alexey!  I will forward your drawings to our engineering team and see whether or not we need any changes.  I think we can accommodate the routing of the wires in our mounting plate, as you suggested.   ...hj
On Oct 7, 2014, at 5:42 AM, Revolt 2012 <revolt2012info@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Mr.HJ Schmidt?
We made model according to your design ,please check the drawing and tell me if you need any changes.
We Don't know how you want to connect the motor bushing (where the wires come out) to the mounting plate (green plate).
We put question mark on the dimension between the motor face and the bushing face. I need to know if you are going to make room for the wires at your plate or we will need to make it at the bushing (need to make the bushing 5-6 mm longer), I think you should make it at your plate.
There is retaining spring at the back of the motor that we didn't take into account (please tell us if you are o.k with this).
You need to put bearing at the back of the motor between the shaft and your mounting plate (the shaft rotate with the back cover).

About the price and delivery time - I need to know if you need 1 sample or more.

Regards
Alexey.K
2014-10-06 22:46 GMT+03:00 Revolt 2012 <revolt2012info@gmail.com>:

6 Oct 2014 - consolidate and send specs for smaller RV motor to Alexey
5 Oct 2014, MN, USA

Thanks for your patience and quick responses, Alexey.K -- we appreciate your fine craftsmanship and desire to get the details just right.

On 09/03/2014 07:39 PM, Revolt 2012 wrote:
> Dear Mr.HJ Schmidt,
>
> We can build a motor for your application,
> I need to know:
> 1. Max allowable volume (is it 5x5 inside?)
> 2. Shaft ends.
    Please send us drawing/plans for the shaft (as soon as you will have it).

The following drawing is a "top down" view of the motor in the track.  The 6 inch (6") track has a quarter inch (0.25") wall thickness, leaving an inner clearance/width of five and one-half inches (5.5").  The two vertical yellow lines in the drawing below represent the inner track surfaces.  The red rectangles are the two aluminum wheels.  The motor is represented by the blue lines.  The motor 'can' should be no larger than 3" in width (measured parallel to the motor's shaft) and 4.25" in diameter (measured perpendicular to the motor's shaft).  The green lines represent the 'chassis' into which the motor is mounted.  It is also made of aluminum, and can be CNC machined to accommodate the mounting flanges of the motor itself, both to save space and make the mounting sturdier.
Inline image 1
The following diagram shows the motor itself only.
Inline image 2
 
Note that the decimal dimensions above are in inches, although we know that you will do the actual machining using metric measurements.  The shaft ends need to be 'stepped' per the diagram above.  The base 15mm motor shaft will extend from the can for one half inch (1/2", 0.500") and then be stepped down to 12mm for the next/last .375".  This last 12mm section should be keyed, using your previous, standard dimensions.  The ends of the shaft will be drilled and tapped with M8x1.25mm female threads to a depth of 20mm (+ or - 3mm, i.e., not a critical measurement).
Please let us know:
1) any other information you need from us
2) if you can build a motor meeting these specifications;
3) details as to cost, payment, and delivery timetable and options.

Thanks!
HJ Schmidt for SkyRide Technology, LLC

cc: other staff members of SkyRide

We also want the 8mm x 1.25mm threaded holes in the shaft ends probably about 15-20mm deep.
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 6:31 PM, John Peterson <pete2271@gmail.com> wrote:
Here is a mockup of the space we have for the motor in a 6" track that has 0.25" wall width (5.5" inner width).
Inline image 1
The motor 'can' should be no larger than 3" in width and 4.25" in diameter.
Here is a mockup showing only the motor:
Inline image 2
We want a stepped shaft.  15mm for the first 1/2" and then 12mm for the last .375".  If this motor needs the mount bump like the first had, that's probably ok, but we'll need to take a look at the final dimensions.
We should look at the final dimensions anyways before he builds any to make sure it will fit.
The drawing is attached.
Thanks,  John
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 4:22 PM, HJ Schmidt <hj@tringa.com> wrote:
Thanks John -- I think this will prevent confusion for all involved, since it is a bit of a commitment, and any errors would be a terrific waste of resources.  I'll correspond with Alexey as soon as you have working drawing.
On 10/3/2014 3:37 PM, John Peterson wrote:
I can make a drawing.  I already did a few times.  3" is max can width.
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:27 PM, HJ Schmidt <hj@tringa.com
<mailto:hj@tringa.com>> wrote:
Hate to be obtuse, but can we express this in total width (parallel to shaft) of the can, plus the total length of the shafts sticking  out from the can?  ... (i.e., max can width = 2.0, each shaft sticks out 0.5", total width of motor, end-to-end is 3")  A drawing here would be so much clearer, imho.
On 10/3/2014 3:07 PM, Michael Guethling wrote:
                    Its the end to end space so we will need a little bit of
                    clearance on
                    each side for the can to spin plus the mounting surface. I think
                    John
                    can recess that a bit into the outside frame.
On Oct 3, 2014 3:02 PM, "HJ Schmidt" <hj@tringa.com
Is the 3" (end-to-end) space for the motor just for the "can," or is that end-to-end for the shaft?
On 10/3/2014 12:13 PM, Michael Guethling wrote:
Hi HJ,
Concerning the yet to be built electric motor we for sure want the 8mm x 1.25 threads in the center of the shaft, we need to fit the motor in between a 3 inch space and the diameter should not be over 4.25 that will give us around .75 clearance from the track. Let's first find out if he can even make one that narrow. If it's a yes then we can worry about giving him the dimensions for the shaft.  We are also ok with two motors if the one gets to be so small we would be lacking power.
Thanks, Michael
18 Sep 2014 - consolidate and send specs for smaller RV motor to Alexey

HJ,
Here are the drawings for the washer and bolt we are using for our drives.
Michael
Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 9:41 AM, John Peterson <pete2271@gmail.com> wrote:
All,
       See the attached email below.  3" max motor width and diameter not to exceed current wheel diameter (currently 4.875").  This email was sent only 12 days ago.  We should get a google drive or something to keep track of all this stuff.  SkyRide needs it's IP to endure regardless of the comings and goings of contract workers such as myself and many other people that work on it.  I know, I'm a broken record on this issue..

One thing that would be nice to know for these mockups would be the radius/diameter of the fillet on the inside of the various tubes.  6x6, 8x8.  All the times I've been out to SkyRide I've never measured it.  I do have that 8x8 section in my shop,  should measure that.
    Thanks for the kind words about the recent 6x6 drives.

Thanks,
    John
    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From: John Peterson <pete2271@gmail.com>
    Date: Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 10:04 AM
    Subject: Re: New RV-100 motor specs for SkyRide
    To: HJ Schmidt <hj@tringa.com>
    Cc: Michael Guethling <michael@skyridetechnology.com>, Scott <scott@skyridetechnology.com>, Jon Stephenson <jon.stephenson@gmail.com>
    Here is a mockup of a top down view of the motor space in a 6x6 track:
    Inline image 2
    The inside of the track edges here are in blue, 5.5" apart.  The wheels are in green, 0.5" thick.  Wheels need to be offset from the edge of the track somewhat because the corners of the steel tube are rounded, and for other reasons.  I chose 0.25" for illustration here, but that might not be enough.  0.125" between the wheels and the sides of the drive (red).  Drive sides are drawn in here at 0.375" thick, this would be a reduction from our current 0.5".  All this gives us a maximum motor 'can' width of 3".  Maximum motor diameter is less than whatever our wheel diameter will be (currently we use 4.875" diam wheels).  Even with larger wheels the motor shouldn't exceed 5" diameter.
    That's a tight fit.  We might have better luck in an 8x8 track.  6x6 has more torsion issues too.
    The only way I see to increase the motor size in a 6x6 track would be to mount the motor perpendicular to the wheel axle and have it hanging off one end of the drive.  The motor diameter requirement wouldn't change, but the width could be much greater.  Downside would be that you would need some bevel gears to transmit the torque to the axle and I assume there is some mechanical friction loss associated with that.
    I agree with alexey, no sense in changing to in-runner by adding external shell, that would only exacerbate the space issues.
    It is a tight fit for the motor in a 6v6 track.  We had issues fitting the RV-120(?) in a 8v8 track.

Thanks,
    John
Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 8:08 AM, HJ Schmidt <hj@tringa.com> wrote:
        Here's Alexey's response (I don't think he ever sleeps).  He argues in favor of staying with the out-runner design.  Next step is to send him a drawing.
        Begin forwarded message:
         From: Revolt 2012 <revolt2012info@gmail.com>
         Date: September 3, 2014 7:39:11 PM CDT
         To: HJ Schmidt <hj@tringa.com>
         Subject: Re: New RV-100 motor specs for SkyRide
       Dear Mr.HJ Schmidt,

We can build a motor for your application,
         I need to know:
         1. Max allowable volume (is it 5x5 inside?)
         2. Shaft ends.
         Please send us drawing/plans for the shaft (as soon as you will have it).
         The best way is that you will give us all your Requirements, we will make drawing/s according to your Requirements and you will approve it , after your approval we will produce it.
         The big advantage of our motors is high power to weight ratio (because they are outrunners).
         We can build them as inrunner by adding an external Shell around them- that will increase their volume and weight.
         I don't know your current design for the mounting but I can suggest:
         You can design and build U shape bracket that have supported bearing at the rear shaft (I don't think it's necessary),
         It's much easier to build  L shape bracket with Reinforcing ribs and connect it directly to the motor bushing (5 screws)- it could carry a lot of weight.
         To give you my best solution I need to get into design.
         It's not easy to add internal hall sensors because you will need to make a new hole for the wires, which is hard to make now. (I don't think it's practical).

Regards
         Alexey.K
2014-09-04 0:06 GMT+02:00 HJ Schmidt <hj@tringa.com>:
Alexey,
             Thanks for your quick response to our questions about the RV-120 motor we are currently using as a prototype for our SkyRide development.  The information you provided was of tremendous help to our effort.

Our current thinking is to have you build another motor for us that will fit into a 5x5 inch square tube.  We agree with you that the power capacity of the RV-100 may be adequate, based on our experience with the RV-120, but aren't sure about that.  For this motor, a 15mm shaft will be OK.  We would also like you to drill and tap both motor shaft ends with M8x1.25mm female threads.  We are working to complete detailed plans on how the two 5 inch wheels will be fastened to the shafts, and will forward these plans to you when they are finished.  These plans would answer the question of shaft length, keying, as well as the depth of the tapped holes.  We would also like this new motor to have 3 embedded Hall Effect sensors to allow us to use with controllers that work best in sensored mode.

In our efforts to find the most efficient way to mount the new motor, the following question has arisen:
              -- can the motor be built so as to be an "in-runner" instead of the current "out-runner" configuration?
          Also, I'm curious to know if it would be practical to add Hall sensors to the RV-120 we already have? We could follow instructions on opening the motor and epoxying sensors into place, but only if this didn't compromise the performance of the motor, and if it were possible to route the additional sense wires easily.  If this isn't practical, we will most likely replace the current controller included by you with a different model that claims to allow smooth starts of the motor under load even in sensor-less mode and see if that solves the "surging" issue.  We have improved our speed sense and throttle circuitry so that the motor's performance has now greatly improved.
We look forward to continuing to work with you on this.  Thanks!    ...hj
      HJ Schmidt,
       for SkyRide Technology
             ---------- Forwarded message ----------
             From: "Revolt 2012" <revolt2012info@gmail.com>
             Date: Aug 12, 2014 4:08 AM
             Subject: Re: RV-120 works great.
             To: "Michael Guethling" <michael@skyridetechnology.com>
             Cc:

Dear Mr.Michael Guethling
             Thanks for your concern, we are near Haifa - The missiles didn't got here.
             About programmable controller - We don't have experience with them so I can't recommend ,I think they will be much more expensive.
             1.)For smoother startup you need hall sensors (Now we produce our motors with hall sensors - it's 15USD extra) - you need also sensored controllers.
             2.)You can Limit the top speed by using 3-speed switch that give you 50%,100% and 120% (I don't think you got on your controller) , for desired top speed - it can be done easily by adding resistors to the throttle wires.
             By the way - we have controllers with 6 analyst wires (If you need).
         About the motor shaft: We can produce you a motor with 20mm shaft Diameter and cut it to your length , it will require us to:
             1.) produce new shaft (of course) .
             2.) change the bearings from NSK6002 to NSK6804 (maybe even use double bearings) .
             3.) changing the stator bushing.
             4.) Produce new back cover (fit to 20mm shaft) .
             For one motor it will add  around 120USD (need to calculate the extra work), Leadtime is one week.

About the speed sense:
             I need to know why the motor is surging (the throttle input change too fast or steep because there is no load on the crank or because the sampling of the sensor is too slow) .
             From what I understood the problem can be:
             1.) Wrong sample rate, you can change it by changing the gear between the crank and the reading shaft (if you got seperate reading shaft).
             2.) Incorrect transfer of the data to the throttle. - the output voltage change Too sharply.
             We Don't have the component for reading the crank speed, but I think that you need  to smooth the output to the throttle, I can see two options:
             1.) Electrical solution- It can be done by electronic components.
             2.) Mechanically -  If you put enough load on the crank it will smooth the readings.

RV-120 can load your crank, but I think that RV-100 will enough for the job.
             most similar applications use flywheel and braking mechanism (it can use eddy current to brake).
             If you run another motor as load why not to use it also as generator to charge the batteries?

It's good for durability that RV-120 with 36V doing the job.
             We can make motor that will fit to your application (It will fit 5 inch x 5 inch inside space )- please let me know if you need 1 sample or more.

Regards
             Alexey.K
 2014-08-12 0:11 GMT+02:00 Michael Guethling <michael@skyridetechnology.com>:
          Hi Alexey,

Hope this message finds you feeling fantastic!

We have been thinking of you and all your fellow citizens in Israel.

We are working with your RV-120 purchased by HJ Schmidt on May 6. We have been very impressed with its power and speed, I just have a few questions?

Do you have a good option for a programmable controller?

The one you supplied works good with our SkyChaser that is strictly motor driven with a throttle We would like to change some things.

1. A smother start it is very jerky when starting out.

2. Limit the top speed.

We had some difficulty attaching our drive wheels do to our limited space (only 6 7/8 inches wide so we needed to cut off both sides of the shaft).

We would like to have a larger shaft size 20mm would work better for application. HJ said you could build on to our specs. How much does that add to the price and what would be the lead time.

On our fitness pedal assist Skyride (see the attached pdf) we have a controller that reads the crank rotation and out puts 0 to 6 volts to another controller the runs the drive motor. We are looking for a better pickup censor for the crank.

We have tried a hall censor with 12 magnets and will be trying an IR censor this week. We need a perfect reading every time to keep the motor from surging. Do you have the components we need to make our system work or perhaps know of another source for us to try?

Would it be possible to use a 2nd RV-120 to create a load on the crank so you could experience resistance as you pedal?

We also have a track with a 5 inch x 5 inch inside space. Could you build a motor to fit that space? The RV-120 has the power we need with only 36 volts.

Thank You for your time.
             Michael Guethling
             SkyRide Technology

12 Aug 2014 - Alexey replies (Michael fwd this msg to me)
From: "Revolt 2012" <revolt2012info@gmail.com>
Date: Aug 12, 2014 4:08 AM
Subject: Re: RV-120 works great.
To: "Michael Guethling" <michael@skyridetechnology.com>
Cc:
Dear Mr.Michael Guethling
Thanks for your concern, we are near Haifa - The missiles didn't got here.
About programmable controller - We don't have experience with them so I can't recommend ,I think they will be much more expensive.
1.)For smoother startup you need hall sensors (Now we produce our motors with hall sensors - it's 15USD extra) - you need also sensored controllers.
2.)You can Limit the top speed by using 3-speed switch that give you 50%,100% and 120% (I don't think you got on your controller) , for desired top speed - it can be done easily by adding resistors to the throttle wires.
By the way - we have controllers with 6 analyst wires (If you need).
About the motor shaft: We can produce you a motor with 20mm shaft Diameter and cut it to your length , it will require us to:
1.) produce new shaft (of course) .
2.) change the bearings from NSK6002 to NSK6804 (maybe even use double bearings) .
3.) changing the stator bushing.
4.) Produce new back cover (fit to 20mm shaft) .
For one motor it will add  around 120USD (need to calculate the extra work), Leadtime is one week.
About the speed sense:
I need to know why the motor is surging (the throttle input change too fast or steep because there is no load on the crank or because the sampling of the sensor is too slow) .
From what I understood the problem can be:
1.) Wrong sample rate, you can change it by changing the gear between the crank and the reading shaft (if you got seperate reading shaft).
2.) Incorrect transfer of the data to the throttle. - the output voltage change Too sharply.
We Don't have the component for reading the crank speed, but I think that you need  to smooth the output to the throttle, I can see two options:
1.) Electrical solution- It can be done by electronic components.
2.) Mechanically -  If you put enough load on the crank it will smooth the readings.
RV-120 can load your crank, but I think that RV-100 will enough for the job.
most similar applications use flywheel and braking mechanism (it can use eddy current to brake).
If you run another motor as load why not to use it also as generator to charge the batteries?
It's good for durability that RV-120 with 36V doing the job.
We can make motor that will fit to your application (It will fit 5 inch x 5 inch inside space )- please let me know if you need 1 sample or more.
Regards
Alexey.K
11 Aug 2014 - inquiry to Alexey from Michael, with .doc attached
We are working with your RV-120 purchased by HJ Schmidt on May 6. We have been very impressed with its power and speed, I just have a few questions?
 Do you have a good option for a programmable controller?
 The one you supplied works good with our SkyChaser that is strictly motor driven with a throttle We would like to change some things.
1. A smother start it is very jerky when starting out.
2. Limit the top speed.
 We had some difficulty attaching our drive wheels do to our limited space (only 6 7/8 inches wide so we needed to cut off both sides of the shaft).
 We would like to have a larger shaft size 20mm would work better for application. HJ said you could build on to our specs. How much does that add to the price and what would be the lead time.
 On our fitness pedal assist Skyride (see the attached pdf) we have a controller that reads the crank rotation and out puts 0 to 6 volts to another controller the runs the drive motor. We are looking for a better pickup censor for the crank.  
We have tried a hall censor with 12 magnets and will be trying an IR censor this week. We need a perfect reading every time to keep the motor from surging. Do you have the components we need to make our system work or perhaps know of another source for us to try?
Would it be possible to use a 2nd RV-120 to create a load on the crank so you could experience resistance as you pedal?
We also have a track with a 5 inch x 5 inch inside space. Could you build a motor to fit that space? The RV-120 has the power we need with only 36 volts.
Thank You for your time.
Michael Guethling
SkyRide Technology
19 May 2014 - motor arrives via USPS Express at 9:30am, signature by hj
package arrived in good shape, no visible damage;  included motor, controller, and small ziploc bag of connector samples.
Re:  Invoice # RVIL18777-002; Unique Transaction ID # 98029884CG3509538;
Alexey -- motor, controller, and sample of connectors arrived this morning.  Thanks to your great packing job, the contents all look great.  As soon as I can brush up on my Hebrew, I'll read all the newspaper pages you included as packing!   Thanks - am looking forward to working with this motor.    ...hj
13 May 2014 - correspondence with, invoice, purchase of 1x unit
DAS paid via paypal: $405.00USD, Invoice # RVIL18777-002; Unique Transaction ID # 98029884CG3509538;
11:28AM
Thanks!!
On 05/13/2014 11:28 AM, Revolt 2012 wrote:
Dear Hj
I got your payment,Thank  you very much,
I made you new invoice, We will prepare your order ASAP.
Regards
Alexey.K
10:15Am
Dear Hj
I attached Invoice with regular shipping:3-4weeks.
If you want air shipping :7-14 days, 82USD
express mail EMS:4-5 days, 90USD
our paypal account: revolt2012info@gmail.com
You can pay with Paypal, For bigger order please use bank transfer.
About the connectors: The connectors are standard ,I see if we can send you samples.

Regards
Alexey.K
2014-05-13 15:38 GMT+02:00 HJ Schmidt <hj@tringa.com>:
Thanks Alexey.K,
    I agree that testing the stock motor is the way to go.  Please send me a pro forma invoice including one motor, one controller, and your shipping options to Minnesota, USA.  We are set up to pay via Visa or Paypal, but could make other arrangements if necessary.
    Also, if you could include a small sampling of the electrical connectors you use, especially if they are non-standard (from a USA point of view, of course).
    ...hj
    The Tringa Group
    2074 Highland Parkway
    Saint Paul, MN. 55116.  USA

HJ Schmidt   651 260 4566
    Debora Slee 651 260 6359
On May 13, 2014, at 1:32 AM, Revolt 2012 <revolt2012info@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Hj
It's great technology,I'm impressed.
Thank you for the Detailed explanation.
about the RV-120:
Our stock motor is 45KV but We can wind the motor for other KV's according your needs (if it's reasonable KV-no extra cost).
I think One motor should be enough for 35MPH, but if you have two trucks maybe you need two motors to balance the driving forces,Then you have to use two controllers per pod ,45A controllers should be enough .
About motor support- need to go into design, please tell me how you connect the drive wheel to the motor (front shaft ,end shaft or two wheels one for each side).
We can make changes according your request.
About the controllers:
45A controller is 15pcs good quality irfb4410 mosfets,  Voltage Range: 36V-84V (If you buy motor I give you good price for the controller).
I understand that 48V 10.5Ah is just for testing, and the pod will have other power source (Fix me if I wrong).
I think you should test our stock motor and then decide about changes (if needed).
Regards
Alexey.K
http://www.revolt.org.il/
Revolt(2012) Ltd
Israel
2014-05-12 23:43 GMT+02:00 HJ Schmidt <hj@tringa.com>:
Alexey - thank you very much for your quick response.
         The intended use for the RV-120 would be to be part of the drive mechanism for a variety of "pods" carrying one or more humans, and suspended from an aerial track (see http://skyridetechnology.com/ ).  We currently have all of the drive power located in the pod hanging from the track, and the human is typically the source of the power (via bicycle pedals or a rowing machine type input).  We would like to move the main (or "human assist") power source into the track itself, which now measures 8 inches on the outside (leaving a net of about 7.5" of clearance inside the track).  Your RV-120, according to the measurements provided on your website, may possibly fit into this space.  We are using 7"x1" diameter drive wheels, and would like to do a "direct drive" if possible.  According to the Kv value you published for the RV-120 motor, we think this may work, since the pods should be able to attain speeds of approximately 35MPH.
         The reason I asked about the load rating for the motor's bearings is trying to calculate what other structural support is necessary for the motor itself, if it was possible to use it as a direct drive for the "truck" units running inside the overhead track.  We typically use two such 'trucks' per pod, so the number of RV-120 motors needed to move one pod  will need to be calculated.  For planning purposes here, we will assume that the human power component won't be used to power the pod, and that the track will be either level or not exceed a 3 percent grade.
         The voltage range in which the RV-120 operates is suitable to our needs.  We are currently experimenting with a BLDC hub motor (also an outrunner) on a bicycle-like vehicle, and are using 48VDC sourced from a LiMn (10.5Ah) pack, so that is a starting point.  Whether we need to go higher than 45A controllers remains to be seen, but it is great to hear that you are working on making higher capacity controllers available, and that you are paying attention to using good MOSFETs.  If you could supply us with more information about the controllers as well, that would be great.
         I appreciate your attention to this!    ...hj
On 5/12/2014 12:15 PM, Revolt 2012 wrote:
Hello,
Thanks for your comment,
RV-120 is powerful outrunner motor.
The Shaft support bearings are  NSK6002 :They can handle  5600N radial force and 2830N axial force.
We have 45A controllers in stock (They are good for RV-100 and RV-120), next week we will have the 80A and 100A special controllers for this motor ,all controllers with good mosfets.
Please tell me about your application so I could advise you.
Regards
Alexey.K
12 May 2014 - questions re their RV-120 BLDC outrunner
1) How much weight/load will this motor's bearings support?

2) Do you manufacture/have available a controller for this motor?
8 May 2014 - msg from Kevin Clemens
Here is an interesting motor--and they do a controller for it too.
http://www.revolt.org.il/rv-120/
Kc

Post subject: Re: Weight Sensing Longboard with Inline Wheel Motors
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:31 pm

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RV-100

The RV-100 is a small but high-power BLDC outrunner motor built by Alexey in Israel (REVOLT Motors).

Photo of the original RV-100 motor used on the SkyBike (around 2014 and later).
motors_bldc_rv-100_from_skyride_2014_photo

Showing RV-100 with machined aluminum bogie parts to fit into a 6-inch wide track.
motors_bldc_rv-100_from_skyride_in_bogie_frame_wire_side_photo

Topview of RV-100 in 6x6 SkyRide track (by John Peterson)
skyride_track_6x6_specs_topview_photo

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RV-100 as Resistance Unit

See eSkyBike Resistance Unit for more information about this application.

We are looking for the lightest and smallest mechanism that we can find to serve as a resistance unit. If this functionality can be provided by a BLDC motor run as a generator (alternator), than the question becomes "What's the smallest motor that will provide enough proportional resistance?"

Here we take an RV-100 that has a dual-ended motor shaft and try to use it as a resistance unit for the FBW eSkyBike. We're using a drill to spin the motor (CCW as seen from the motor's wire side) at ~ 1,050 RPM. The open circuit voltage potential on the other side of a 3 phase bridge rectifier is about 18 volts. Spinning the motor CW at the same RPM produces the same DC voltage on the rectifier's output side.
motors_bldc_rv-100_from_skyride_in_bogie_frame_as_generator_photo

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RV-120

A larger version of the RV-100 BLDC outrunner motor. 14 physical magnets; 7 pole pairs;

Bill James (of JPods) drills and taps one shaft end of a RV-120 to hold a wheel for direct drive on the 30' test track at Highland Pkwy. [2017]
motors_bldc_rv-120_jpods_on_lathe_bill_james_photo

... sometimes just setting up an operation takes much longer than the operation itself.
motors_bldc_rv-120_jpods_on_lathe_with_entire_bogie_photo

RV-120 opened up on testbench for the repair of a bad Hall Effect sensor. The replacement Hall sensor can be seen dangling near the 7 o'clock position of the motor's stator. Once soldered to the one signal and two supply wires, and having the heat shrink installed (white, black, red) over them, it will be glued into an air gap between the stator's windings. The idea is to get it as close as possible to the permanent magnets glued into the rotating outer rotor shell without actually touching them. As the magnets pass over the Hall sensor, the sensor will send to the controller a single pulse for each magnet pair passing over it. It takes a pair of magnets because the Hall sensor must 'see' one North and one South pole go by before it triggers a pulse. The magnets must be glued into the rotor so that they alternate their magnetic orientation in order for this to work correctly.
motors_bldc_rv-120_opened_on_bench_photo

Shown in the photo below are the common RV-120 Hall sensor and phase wiring patterns. The motor connectors are on the left side, while the controller's are on the right side.

Alexey uses all black, ~12AWG silicone insulated high-strand count wires for Revolt's phase power inputs. We identify them as Blue-Green-Yellow, left to right, when looking at the motor's side from which all wires exit. In this particular motor, one black factory wire was damaged and replaced with a yellow wire, but in the "Blue" position. When the phase wires are identified this way, the motor will spin CW when connected to a standard Infineon-type BLDC controller, assuming the Hall wires are also matching this pattern. With a Grin "Grinfineon" controller, however, the BGY of the motor would need to be connected to the YBG of the controller.

The motor's Hall sensor wires shown here are mated with a Grinfineon controller's Hall connector (JST-SM-5). The red positive 5VDC power and the black negative wires are always connected to each other, regardless of the motor/controller models involved. Each Hall sensor must be powered by 5VDC, and will toggle its output pin on and off as it passes through a magnetic north and south pole pair.
motors_bldc_rv-120_hall_phase_wire_pattern_photo

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RV-120 as Resistance Unit

See eSkyBike Resistance Unit for more information about this application.

Here we take an RV-120 that has a dual-ended motor shaft and try to use it as a resistance unit for the FBW eSkyBike.
motors_bldc_rv-120_dual_end_shaft_with_cranks_and_pedals_photo

Converting the 4-sided tapered hole into a straight 15mm hole in the crank so that it can be mounted directly on the motor's main shaft. We start with the left (non-drive) side crank. The crank needs to held down firmly because we're really doing more of a milling than drilling operation here. It's aluminum and we're making a very light cut, so we can get away with it.
motors_bldc_rv-120_dual_end_shaft_prepping_old_crank_arms_for_15mm_shaft_use_left_photo
Repeating the operation for the right/drive side crank:

This shows that very little aluminum is removed from the crank hole to make a snug fit on the 15mm axle. Vestiges of the four square corners are left, and they will make it easier to align the cranks 180 degrees apart. We'll also use the keyways cut into the shaft to mate with the appropriate corner in the crank hole, after filing the crank out a bit. To keep the cranks fastened to the shaft, we'll either drill/tap (M8) holes into the shaft ends for use with standard bottom bracket/crank bolts, or use set screws.
motors_bldc_rv-120_dual_end_shaft_prepping_old_crank_arms_for_15mm_shaft_use_closeup_photo

Each shaft end on this particular RV-120 has a 'blind' 4mm keyway milled into it. I found two 4mm round steel pins, about 3/4" long, that fit perfectly into the milled recess on the shaft. About half of the pin sticks out above the keyway and engages a matching slot in the crank.
motors_bldc_rv-120_dual_end_shaft_with_crank_modified_for_4mm_round_key_photo

The matching slot in the crank was created by milling out one of the original square corners in the crank. Using a Foredom hand-held tool with a 1/8" carbide mill, the rough shape was created. A rat tail file was used to make it a no-wiggle push fit.
motors_bldc_rv-120_dual_end_shaft_with_crank_modified_for_4mm_round_key_foredom_tool_photo

Once the crank arm was firmly tapped into place with the locking keyway pin, the next step was - of course - to remove it again for additional mods. Plan was to simply use the stock Park Tools crank removal tool I'd been using for years. Right. The stock tool is designed to fit over the bottom bracket axle as it threads into the crank. Apparently Park wasn't anticipating 15mm thick axles, because the tool's clearance stops at about 'close-but-no-cigar' (14.5mm).
motors_bldc_rv-120_dual_end_shaft_with_crank_puller_tool_modified_for_15mm_shaft_photo

Wass nich passt, wird passend gemacht. Basic engineering priciple learned at an early age from my father. Usually implemented with a hammer, but not here. Fortunately Park Tools doesn't skimp on materials when making their tools, so boring the cup out to 15.5mm didn't make anybody nervous.
motors_bldc_rv-120_dual_end_shaft_with_crank_puller_tool_modified_for_15mm_shaft_boring_bar_photo

Nothing like carbide edges when cutting tool steel...
motors_bldc_rv-120_dual_end_shaft_with_crank_puller_tool_modified_for_15mm_shaft_boring_bar_closeup_photo

Just one little silly millimeter, and it now works! Warranty probably voided on both tool and the cranks.
motors_bldc_rv-120_dual_end_shaft_with_crank_puller_tool_modified_for_15mm_shaft_finished_photo

Trial positioning of RV-120 over the stock bottom bracket on the red recumbent frame. Given that this frame's boom can be adjusted for the rider's size (leg length), this can be made to work. Even given the width of the RV-120, the "Q factor" seems quite acceptable. The actual mounting method remains to be determined.
motors_bldc_rv-120_dual_end_shaft_with_cranks_and_pedals_trial_position_on_fbw-eskybike_photo

Since we already have made motor mounts for the RV-120 using 4" aluminum angle bar stock (using JPods' CNC machine), we'll simply use that to mount this motor to the red recumbent bike frame. We'll use three fastening points. The bike's adjustable boom is flipped upside down to get the angled derailleur support post out of the way. One support point will be a custom U-bolt made from scrap 1/4" all-thread (shown below), with a protective rubber sleeve to improve grip on the boom tube without scratching the paint.
skyride_bike_c-frame_recumbent_bike_frame_old_red_resistance_unit_mounting_L-beam_photo

To avoid using the bike tube as a mandrel, a piece of scrap pipe was machined to the bike boom tube's outer diameter of 41mm. Not absolutely necessary, but the boom tube needs to stay perfectly round.
skyride_bike_c-frame_recumbent_bike_frame_old_red_resistance_unit_mounting_41mm_mandrel_photo

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RV-120SH as Resistance Unit

See eSkyBike Resistance Unit for more information about this application.

This motor was custom manufactured for us by Alexey.K of Revolt Motors for the very specific purpose of serving as a resistance unit. The goal was to achieve as low a Kv value as possible by winding the stator coils for that purpose. Its physical dimensions and shaft configuration is spelled out in this diagram.
motors_bldc_rv-120sh_custom_resistance_unit_on_workbench_photo

The first test was to put a crank & pedal on one shaft end of the motor and to crank it by hand while all three phase wires are shorted together. This resulted in a very smooth and 'torquey' response, with a very high degree of resistance to being turned.

The next test was to connect the phase wires to a 3 phase bridge rectifier and drive a DC resistive load. In this case the load was a main headlight bulb from a 1967 VW beetle. The output is connected to the high beam filament, which is designed for approximately 30 watts at 12VDC. Cranking the motor by hand, which might have approached 60 RPM, resulted in an approximate 2.25 amp current at about 6 volts. A 25,000 mF capacitor was used to help stabilize the meter readings somewhat.

The next step will be to use another motor to turn this resistance unit at a consistent, measurable speed to see how close Alexey.K came to the Kv 10 target value. If in fact we were turning the motor at 60 RPM and the output was 6 volts, the Kv would be 10, so this very quick test leads to optimism.

You can just see the edge of the RV-120SH mounted to the red bike's bottom bracket via a short length of 4" aluminum angle bar stock. The crank's spider (minus any chainrings) is facing upwards, with the entire assembly clamped into a vise on the workbench.
motors_bldc_rv-120sh_custom_resistance_unit_on_workbench_for_direct_pedal_test_photo

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CA3 Key Settings for Resistance Unit

If using the CA3 as an additional control device for the Resistance Unit, the following settings are relevant to fully enabling proportion regen, which is really what the resistance unit relies on. For instance, setting the "Throttle Min Out" to the non-default value of 0.0V may be required to pull the controller's throttle signal down into the regen range (typically below 0.8V).

Proportional Regen with CA3
Ebrake Brake Out	0.90 V
Throttle Input Zero Threshold	1.00 V
Throttle Input Full Threshold	4.10 V
Throttle Input Fault Threshold	4.60 V
Throttle Output Min Out	0.00 V
Throttle Output Max Out	3.80 V

See eSkyBike Resistance Unit for more information about this application.

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Grin All-Axle motors

For the latest information about this motor, see the all-axle-hub-motor.html page on the manufacturer's (Justin's) site.

These motors are currently being used on the eG20 bike and the eStreetMachine.

The following shows our first all-axle motor on the BogieDyno after the (failed) cable repair. While the motor spins fine, one of the Hall sensor wires is still broken so the motor won't start from a complete stop. You can tell by looking at the CA display that even though the motor is spinning freely (using 26 watts), the speed display remains at "0.00 mph". Without the three fully functioning Hall sensors, the motor doesn't output a usable speed signal. The temperature display does work however, showing 15.2 degrees Centrigrade in the cool basement.

The motor is connected to the BogieDyno using a DIY adapter to go from the 'new' L10 style to the earlier combination of Anderson PowerPole (power) and JST-SM (signals) used by the BogieDyno.
motors_grin-all-axle-1_failed_repair_on_bogiedyno_photo

Here we can see the Grin wheel-builder's signature markings on the rim tape of our second all-axle motor, made on July 30, 2020. It's first use will be on the eG20, with a narrower 1.95" Snafu BMX tire.
motors_grin-all-axle-2_in_grin_laced_20-inch_wheel_signature_photo

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RC/Flipsky motors

This category contains all small BLDC (in-runner or out-runner) motors. The most common models of this type that we have used are manufactured by Flipsky.

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Skateboard hub motors

Shown below are a pair of 70mm skateboard hubmotors mounted on a "rear truck" specifically designed to accommodate hub motors. These are typical BLDC "outrunner" motors, powered via three phase wires (black, blue, and yellow) per motor. These came from the factory with 4mm male 'bullet' connectors alread affixed. For the amount of current that these motors can draw, the phase wires seem rather skimpy. These motors are also equipped with three Hall Sensors, which are powered by the controller with 5VDC plus and ground (red and black wires). This functionality is enabled via the thinner 5 wire bundle coming out of the motor, terminated by a five position JST-PH female connector. When used with a "smart" controller like the VESC, it doesn't matter in which order the Hall or phase wires are connected to the controller since the controller will determine the correct order as part of the setup process. Look under the VESC-TOOL® section for more information about this process.
bogie_skateboard_hubmotor_mounted_on_rear_axle_photo

The skateboard hubmotors we're using are being delivered with a 5 pin female JST-PH connector on the signal wire bundle. These five wires consist of the standard red (positive) and black (negative) wires for suppling the 5VDC current for the Hall Sensors, and the three remaing wires (yellow, white, orange) are for the three Hall signals coming from the motor.
bogie_skateboard_hubmotor_signal_wires_plug_jst-ph-5f_photo

The corresponding JST-PH male header/connector socket on the controller, however, is designed to accommodate a sixth optional wire to connect to a heat sensor in the motor. Our motors don't have a heat sensor, so this shoots down a plug-and-play solution. The following photo shows the process of having to carefully remove each of the five motor wires from the five position JST plug. Carefully pry up the small plastic tab over each pin just enough so you can pull out each wire. It helps to push the wire further *into* the connector while prying up to create some space for your prying tool. Not shown is then re-inserting these same wires into a six conductor JST-PH plug, skipping the position for the temperature sensor wire. Once this is accomplished, you can simply plug the motor's signal wires into the corresponding (keyed) socket on the VESC controller.
bogie_skateboard_hubmotor_signal_wires_plug_conversion_photo

Shown below are a complete set of four 90mm (approx. 3.5") skateboard wheels mounted on trucks. Due to market trends of price and availability, JPods is standardizing on the 90mm wheel diameter format. The top two are hubmotors, and the bottom two are passive wheels. The three power phase wires for these motors feel flimsy compared to the flexible silicone insulated wires of the motors above, and the smaller bullet connectors also seem inadequate for handling any significant current flows. If drawing the full 550 watts that these motors are rated for (see specs below) while using a 6S (24 volt) battery pack, the phase wires and connectors will be carrying nearly 23 amps of DC current. (To do: measure gage of wire ... initial estimate is 18AWG, using coarse copper strands.)

The five signal wires for these motors will also need to be redone into the JST-PH-F6 connectors (see above) to connect directly to the VESC dual controller board. The manufacturer saw fit to add some hot glue where the wires enter the backs of the connectors, so this will have to be dealt with as well.

Motor specs, per vendor's ("PROMOTOR") website: (sold via Amazon, Aug 2020)
Type:brushless out runner motor
Power: 550W each motor
Speed: 70KV
Input voltage: 24V-42V (6S-10S)
Truck: 7 inch
Wheels: 9053
Color: Orange
Wheel dimension: 90mmx53mm

bogie_skateboard_hubmotors_90mm_mounted_on_rear_axle_photo

The photo below adds the VESC 6.6 Dual BLDC motor controller, which is functionally equivalent to a pair of identical single VESC controllers connected to each other via a CANBUS communication protocol. This combination of two controllers on a single PCB simplifies the task of having both motors controlled by a single throttle input. For this project we'll be standardizing on 83mm diameter hubmotors, which look just like these but are larger.
bogie_skateboard_hubmotor_and_vesc_dual_controller_photo

When used with a VESC controller, the 83mm in-wheel hubmotors we're using on the skateboard bogies do not require having their phase (power) wires individually identified. You might encounter some motors and/or controllers in which the phase wires have been identified as being either blue, yellow, or green. This was likely done for testing with other BLDC controllers where this color sequencing was necessary. The "smart" controllers like the VESC series (and Grin Phaserunner) will internally map the correct sequencing of these phase wires when the controller is matched to a specific motor via the 'autodetect' process (see under VESC controllers, Motor Detection). Since we've standardized on the VESC controllers, this means you can safely ignore color markings on phase wires as long as you go through the appropriate motor detection process each time you change *either* the motor or controller combination! This also applies to the color-coded Hall Sensor signal wires, but NOT to the red and black voltage supply wires, which must *always* be correctly connected. Confirm this visually by matching wire colors to the silkscreen labeling next to the connector on the controller board.

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Motors

Contents

Resources

Glossary

Bafang motors

BBSHD (Luna)

BBSHD (Luna) Disassembly

Bafang G06 Geared Rear Hub

Bafang G020 Geared Front Hub

Crystalyte motors

Crystalyte HT3525

Crystalyte H3548 (UFO)

REVOLT Motors

RV-100

RV-100 as Resistance Unit

RV-120

RV-120 as Resistance Unit

RV-120SH as Resistance Unit

CA3 Key Settings for Resistance Unit

Grin All-Axle motors

RC/Flipsky motors

Skateboard hub motors